0:01 - Intro
3:33 - when you're in the hiring process and say you put out touch on a little bit more about where you find people and what not
6:15 - Do you have something in them where you feel like even if they're not perfect you can train them are you willing to accept subpar people irrationally thinking that you can improve them in your house?
9:23 - Exponential growth on things, and the lazy hiring theory
15:32 - Hiring potentially: the Old Charley vs the New Charley
19:12 - Focus on the overall exponential growth of the business, the main goal of your hires
20:12 - How to leverage your time, how to hire and keeping the focus on your time.
21:46 - What's been your most successful avenues for finding A-players or great people?
27:17 - Buy some courses, getting those communities and use as recruitment poles
29:02 - The journey of Outsourcing Angel. Feels more like hunting than farming.
34:23 - The difference between A players and B players.
38:57 - Tips for keeping good people
42:17 - Closing Remarks
Charley: Hey there agency owners. This episode of The Podcast is brought to you by outsourcing angel. The place to go for virtual team and staff from the Philippines. If you head over there now that's OutsourcingAngel.com You can get a week free with your new virtual team member. So head over and check that out. Now in this episode of the podcast myself and my co-host Kim Barrett talk about finding and keeping great people. Now earlier today I actually recorded a podcast with Brad Sugars and he said something that I think is just so true, is like you don't build your business your people build your business it's your job to build your people and your people will take you all the way. And I think that is just so true. So if you're going down the agency path having people in your business that can help you grow is just so important. So I hope you enjoy this episode of the podcast and if you do please make sure to like and subscribe.
Charley: All right guys. We are live for another episode of the Agency Valley podcast. It's Charley here. The host of the Agency Valley Podcast. And I am joined by my fellow co-host Kim Barrett. How are you doing Kim.
Kim: I am doing super well Mr. Charley sir. Thank you very much, and yourself?
Charley: Doing well. It's been a really good week. Like at the time of this recording this week we got to speak with Brad Sugars earlier today which was just such a blast. But I feel like Agency Valley is taking off. These podcasts start and gets more traction.
Kim: Yeah I have to agree. It's great fun recording but I think there's like so many good people that are reaching out to want to be a part of it which is awesome.
Charley: Yeah and big big thank you to all the people that have subscribed to the show so far. Now, today Kim this is a topic that is very close to both our hearts in all honesty because both of us have gone down this route of building teams and what we want to get into today is I suppose the art and science of finding and keeping great people because I feel like it's a bit of both.
Kim: I would have to agree it is it's definitely it's almost as art and science inside a circus tent because I feel like it's also a juggling act isn't it that things can go right and wrong very easily. It's crazy.
Charley: It's really fascinating to me right. It's interesting I should say and fascinating both of them. This area all right I'm going to put it out there and go straight for the fence here. I think this area has the potential to make or break any agency and it's never given enough importance when it comes to, I'm going to say most businesses, don't give this the importance it deserves.
Kim: I was at Hayfield upset a hundred times I agree.
Charley: And it's like you know we even spoke to you know when we did speak to Brad he said these great qualities you don't build your business your people build your business it's your job to be with your people and then they will build your business. And I was like yes exactly.
Kim: It's just we're just giving it a round of applause the whole interview was great.
Charley: To feel like I was this fan. I couldn't help it. I was so excited.
Kim: You definitely were. But I mean less can I can I share a little story. Start off with on this topic just because it's it's something I'm also going through at the moment and more so share a feeling that I have and then we can delve into a little bit more is that okay if I kind of riff on this a little bit.
Charley: Absolutely not definitely do it.
Kim: And we'll do anyway. Some entrepreneurs do it I won't. So what I wanted to share is that what I find when you are looking for a place in that when you're in the hiring process and say you put out touch on a little bit more about where you find people and what not. But when you get people come in. I think if it's a if it's a point in your business that is painful for you currently where you really want someone I think you make a lot rash decisions without the justification behind them. So for me at the moment we're looking at bringing on a new media buyer. New ads manager internally here. And because at the moment it's a hole that I want to fill as soon as possible so I can focus on other areas of the business. Previously I know that I made very quick decisions in and filling that space because it's going to alleviate stress and pressure for me. Without really thinking of the long term ramifications of not getting the right person. Well you know it's kind of like oh that's future Kim's problem today. Kim has this problem let's solve that for him and make him happy. But what happens is I make that decision so recently we've had a couple of applicants come through. The first one or two were not ideal. They didn't complete the process one came through that was good they're about to start doing a little bit of trial work for us whereas previously I probably would have said I just get this person did this get them in on board them work with them get them to take some you know to take some of the pressure off the rest of the team and let's get things happening.
Kim: But by adding in a few extra steps for ourselves and waiting and really not letting me be responsible for making that call letting my manager make that decision we wait a little bit longer and we've got a couple more like really good quality people that have potentially come through which if we had done what previously we'd done which is when there was pain we filled that spot as quick as possible without necessarily going through a process we would have probably or potentially missed out on these other people.
Kim: So I think that is a very quick thing that a lot of people have if you have pain in growth and we talked about this in other episodes when things are growing fast and so you just want to alleviate the pressure. So you just bring someone on and I always have that feeling and even now it's like it's not really pressure but I kind of want to leave here and fill that hole as quick as possible and I want quick results. Now I'm a millennial you know I was when my instant gratification and lacks. So I feel like though we always when to go for that straight away. But this time I'm noticing a big different to what I am kind of like more removed from. I don't know if you've had that feeling previously Charley.
Charley: So I want to ask a deeper question here. When I ask you something is there something in you when you make in previous circumstances not this time when you do hire someone and be rational. Do you have something in them where you feel like even if they're not perfect you can train them are you willing to accept subpar people irrationally thinking that you can improve them in your house?
Kim: Well I'll answer that probably slightly different to the answer that you're expecting right. We've had this conversation before you and I and you said look you can take someone from a seven to a ten out of ten but you can't take someone from one two to ten out of ten. So I think what I've done previously is fudge their numbers a bit for them going Oh they seem pretty good. Yeah they're dead. They're seven. They might be a five for something like that. And you're like Oh yeah. Or as well I probably haven't done previously. Not this time round I haven't done this for probably the last time we did this was like 10 months ago or something like that right. But we probably didn't do a rigorous enough testing process to get the actual like because you can ask many questions to get them to do a few different bits and pieces to try and ascertain what the level is. But there's certain things that I think. And again I could be wrong but it kind of hard to pull out of people like levels of attention to detail, speed and accuracy of work, like how far someone can get something done. I think sometimes a little bit skewed, especially if you get him to do on a if you do a test and they come back. Oh yeah that took me like 30 minutes just like well how do I know that actually took them 30 minutes from not getting them to do testing my thing and then later it takes them two hours you know what I mean. Like those sorts of things I think sometimes a little bit hard and they don't really pop up until well for me at that time. They didn't pop up until after they joined the show after I onboard them at a very rapid pace.
Charley: Kim I think you have just nailed at the absolute root cause like absolute in my opinion of why so many businesses now with the subpar stuff so like b-players or they end up with a high churn of staff or they end up just basically in experiences they don't enjoy. So in your reference they're definitely creating some of future Kims problems. I've thought about this a lot. It's even in my notes that you can't see at the moment that I made for this episode. I call it lazy recruiting and we see many versions of these where the pressure of getting this done and the pressure of it being you know if you don't have a HR apartment and you are the one hiring is it so easy to take someone on and say yeah let's go bring them in. We're trying them up to turn that 7 to a 10 even though there are four we're trying to turn into a 10. And it just escalates and snowballs and I'm one hundred and you know just like I'm not saying that this is an experience where it's like I knew this and I've never done this wrong. I have fuck this up many times before I had that realization you had as well. And this is something I think a lot about now.
Kim: And I think is so true because yes it just gets harder and I think as you say like you do go well it's like it's not actually that much longer. And I think and it's in the world of growth fast business. You know I think to label when we talked about this morning is exponential growth on things. It's like a week is it it is a short but also a long period of time. So it's like if I don't plug something in a week ten days two weeks that's half a month. That's you know like in you in your head you accelerate I think depending on how you think about business and how you act upon things like I'm a very much an immediate person. Someone tells me something to do. I will follow and execute on that immediately and and get it done. So to me if I I think sometimes especially when I look at my business if it's it is going slower in certain area I'm like Ah I'm not I'm not getting something done there so of course I need to fill that hole of course and get that person in. But if we wait that extra week which in reality probably did not have that much of an effect on the business to do an extra test to see if we got any more extra applications etc then we probably would have a better outcome at the end of the day.
Charley: Yeah absolutely. Absolutely. Like this is like I feel like this is a great moment for you. I think you've had a huge realization with team that we're doing breakthroughs on the podcast now. All right well look I'll share one back to you. It's really fascinating to me this topic I'm very very interested in it. So before we started this episode I told you that basically in the last let's say six months is that I've actually built a brand new team of six people that are focused on an area that I've never done before. So this is a team I've built specific just to work on website and SEO projects. So I've got it all up. It's taking me you know a good six months probably a little bit longer in all honesty to put these team together. What I left out though is that has been 10 people so it took us ten people and filtering and doing better testing and recruiting and being willing to say after it you know someone was a month in. You just not right for this position and previously you know I want to have my own growth moment now. Previously I wouldn't have done that. Previously I would have been stubborn and go now we're just trying to mop the leaf with the team you know. Eventually they'll be right where it's like I've really gone. And sometimes you really just have to accept it doesn't mean they're a bad person or a bad worker but you can literally get someone who's skillset or experience or a whole variety of reasons or culture fit right and you are so much better moving someone on quickly than you are trying to go through that same thing. So it all comes back to this you know lazy hiring theory if we allow people that aren't right into our business so far to just hire anyone this could have been you know taking me 20 people to get here instead of 10.
Kim: That's so true. And I think sometimes as well depending on the -- like again reflecting on on some of the decisions I've made, your life sometimes I think I've been I was previously like willing to take someone if I thought this skill set was okay -- but they were like within a good price range those are all that you know that's pretty affordable for what they like looking what they'd like. Look can you charge me. Oh that's not bad. Like that's pretty good so I can get them in trying to mop I've got all the training you know I've got some of the best training in the world on running in Scouting Facebook ads stuff they go through that I get them at a bargain that and I literally did a post about this the other day which is like do you have champagne taste but to be a budget. And I was like we do it in our marketing, our finances, our labels, and I take this I cycle Oh cool I want the best in the world but I'm going to pay you for it like this you are going to pay pay a b play by a salary. And it's like well I mean when I was right now was like that literally when I was writing I was like everyone's gonna relate because I get it as well. What I was writing the whole post I was like that's what I'd previously done. And now you've got some period.
Charley: My cheeks hurt. My cheeks actually hurt. I'm glad I'm not smiling so hard of the moment continue.
Kim: Yeah. Also looking at this like we had someone come through that applied and they're, because we ask went out like when we were looking for our new plays we did check our main finalist from Facebook ads to a landing page detail opt in and then we have an email with some next steps just so we can pick up as well if they have attention to detail if they check their email if they do the steps but one of the questions is the salary expectation.
Kim: So we put things in that one we said like an approximate on track earnings what it could be like a ballpark figure. So we say what are your earnings expectations. And we have someone that put in someone didn't read or write. They applied this at one point eight million and I was like 'Mate, you're not coming to work from here and earning one point eight million first of all we definitely not'. And one was like cool that like whatever might have been 50 grand and tell him it was like cool, sixty five, seventy five. And it might have been a little bit higher than at the time but I was thinking but what I saw in the application I was like the application is reflective of someone that is that would be worth potentially 75 80k a year in the position. So I'm like Well again going back to that thing well actually in the scheme of things it's actually not that much more money from paying someone 50 to 70 grand. Like 20 grand is a big difference in the business yes. But sometimes it's not. If they have twenty thousand dollars extra worth of value that they bring with that as well.
Charley: Oh go further. Let's say you hire someone for 50 and it doesn't work out and you hire another person at the same rate of 50 by the time you factor in your recruitment costs and the time invested in hiring and training a new person you would have been better off with the person for 70 you spend 70 and now you've got a person that's only 50 quality.
Kim: Yeah yeah. A hundred percent. And again I think it's it's very important to know those things as well if someone is good and you know like depending on the cash flow the budgets and the allocation of resources towards it's like don't have that champagne expectation when you're paying for Bill.
Charley: I feel like I was always worse here I feel like you've like stared into my soul when I had my first agency when I was doing PPC. I had that attitude. I literally just tried to find the cheapest person I could find on the Internet to do Google AdWords and I was going to train them up and it was going to be these amazing ROI as I'm sure you felt as well you're inviting me. And what's interesting like I suppose I could say like what do I do differently now. I've found that when I'm hiring for a role I'll sit down and literally work out what type of return I expect to get from the role. So I give you these ever you've got you're talking about hiring potentially a media buyer or an ad manager whatever you want to call it. And I would sit there and go Old Charley would just look for cheap and try and make it work. New Charley is more like a guy. Well we'd like to hire someone and let's pretend I can manage 10 client accounts and 10 accounts are worth let's say a couple of grand of three grand each or whatever your pricing is. And I go. OK. Well if they can handle 10 clients three grand then they have really worth to me about 30 grand a month less operating costs in a bit. Good. I could pay them. Let's say eight or 10 grand a month. Like that's still very much worth it to me to have the right person. So like it kind of helps me define like I suppose how to get a good ROI from someone and how high I can go to get a level of quality and then the other thing I really love about this is if I draw this out and I can say wow I need someone who's good that is willing to work for a dollar an hour is there's much ROI in this role then it really makes me go back to the drawing board on how did this role even exist or is the business model right to support these type of role.
Kim: Mm hmm. Yeah 100%. That is so so good and obviously like the other thing that you look at is well if someone has like like you said that if you take that as an example. But if they're able then to also as a business or an array if you're a business or an agency or you're listening to this podcast if they're also able to potentially free up your time is at the actually the actual tone is exponential because if you look at what your let's say the value of your time and if you break that down and ends up being whatever 50 bucks now. But if they start taking tasks off your desk to take to allow you to focus on the business growth you're turning over a million dollars. I think it's on. I could be wrong here. My mess. Right or wrong. I think I was like four bucks an hour. How many hours in a day that you work. So if you're paying 50 dollars an hour and you're returning time that is worth you four hundred dollars an hour. Again it's even better for the business not only on it's just the direct client response work but if it's like if it takes time off yours. Like I'm speaking with my general manager today I said the more time we got to new people we've got two roles we're currently hiring for a media buyer and also some some salespeople it's like the more time that they take off from me that I am 100 percent confident in them on fulfilling them what they are doing the more they are worth to me. So it's like you know if they just come and they just do their roll that maybe they're worth 70 grand but if they take more stuff off my plate than on my cool they're worth goes up like expensive eight times that. Ninety eight hundred K every time they remove things from me that I also don't have to like not worry about. But like if that's gone from my field of vision and my what I have to focus my attention on every day and I just focus on the overall exponential growth of the business then it's like well that that value increases. Yeah, crazy overtime.
Charley: That is a very interesting comment. Very very interesting one. I think what I've about to highlight though is that if you're working in your business. Definitely. Then every hire you have gone for should support your removal from the business. That should be the main goal of your hires. In all honesty you're working in your business then definitely every hire has to support you levelling up and getting out of it. Otherwise you stay stuck in a rut or eventually burn out like many agency owners do. But once you get to a certain point and I suppose I'm playing a little bit of a different game here is like I'm not hiring people to support my time anymore. Yeah hi I'm talking for from the people listening. Obviously you know they're not all just like black cyclists chocolate eating type values you know we just what we all aspire to be How to have your chocolate and eat it too by Charley Valher, and wait for the book to come out.
Charley: I am actually worried about like diabetes and stuff these days and I really need to cut back.
Kim: Cold green smoothies in them and you'll be fine.
Charley: Oh but I think we've always found a title for another episode like this that is absolutely so important to consider. From like you know how to leverage your time how to hire and keeping the focus on your time like every hire should support your time not auditioning the business at that point.
Kim: Mm hmm. Yeah you'll be very interested to know as well and obviously I think we got comments somewhere where people listen or watch this is going like are they still in the business or on the business. We're very intrigued to see because obviously that does dictate as well. Very much so I as you think about things slightly different things I'm still I'm on the business but I'm still in the business somewhat in certain areas so I probably you probably think about things very differently being that you're already external versus someone who's internal as well.
Charley: Oh totally and I'm you know we all go through different stages and do different things is no right or wrong way to do things my personal like obviously my personal view is like I very much aspire to not be in the business but that doesn't mean you have to. But I would be very fascinated to hear where people are at that are listening to the show because I think it would be a good thing for us to know so we can make obviously more relevant content to help them on the path they're on.
Kim: Yeah definitely.
Charley: So.I'll switch it up here. You've already got nailed. Like what I think other to like. Very very interesting things like if you want to have phenomenally more success with finding and keeping great people. Number one don't be lazy with recruitment. Do not hire your friends and family goes through a proper process put an ad up on or craigslist or whatever it is you're using to recruit people feel to them hard even try them for a month and be willing to let them go if they're not well like there's so many things you can do to improve like that part of it with not being lazy with finding people but then Point two is that you know going to directly quote because I think it's so relevant here is like you can't have a champagne flavor or champagne taste if your budget is a beer taste. And I would just get people to really think about the cost of free recruitment. Well the cost of having a B player because one a player can dramatically change a company one great person can shift things hugely and I've got some great examples of this that I'll come back to. But I think that's just so huge. But the next thing I want to ask Kim thinking is like in all your experience of hiring people where have you found good people. What's been your most successful avenues for finding A players or great people.
Kim: Funnily enough, it's number one has been a referral based. Number two has been internship based, number three has been Facebook ad based. So I'll quickly touch an issue, number one I have had in the past people go, Hey, like this person is really good at this, you want to have a conversation with them. And I've had a chat and write that in there hasn't come up to anything but later circle back in there become part of our team. And then when I look at some of our longest standing team members at the moment, both that have done funnel work with us, and one of them's going off and started his own company now, which is awesome. And I'm to like our graphic and video editing team members. Well, both of them started from internships. So they actually came in that worked with us for free. We go with them experience, exposure and things like that. And both those people will probably the longest standing and most successful within our business from a retention standpoint. Also came through from internships from studying, working for free and then coming in and becoming part of our team after that, which was really has been really, really successful for us over time. We still currently have two interns at them, or two interns, one one just finished and we have one a new intern at that moment that's come through. And who knows what, what could happen with them in the future also. And then, lastly has been yet like we've been run Facebook being a Facebook ad company, if you will, for lack of better words, it's we've always run Facebook ads, because it's like, well, I can kind of target the type of people that I want to as well. And I would probably say that there is a third because it's probably been at least another least its third in the rankings of people that have stayed with us the longest and given us the best outcome. And only because we still have some current hires that were going through that process that you know, if you asked me in three or six months, I may change that I may go up number one, or I may say it's terrible. But we'll see after the next next round of hiring as well.
Charley: I love that you have like a proof in the pudding content. It's like we do Facebook ads, we're going to use Facebook ads, like you described massive points with me. I really, really like that. But what's fascinating, they're very different avenues than I've gotten my best people from. So it just goes to show you there's multiple ways to go about these. And I guess I really like it. I'm kind of curious on these. Have you found the internship route has been good, because you've brought people on that I suppose hungry to learn and develop and you've been able to develop them in your way of doing things?
Kim: A good question. I would say one aspect of that is is that definitely there. But I find when like I think it's unspoken within internship, that potentially if you work really hard and work well, there is something for you there. Right if you can show and it's like I remember when I did work experience at school and internships is like, obviously, it's cool that businesses have support where people come and work for free. Right, no one's going to say no to that. However, if people show merit hard work attention to detail. I think it's like it's almost an unspoken rule of those things where you go, well, potentially, if there's something available, they may offer me a job. Like I remember when I went into work experience when I was a kid, I worked really hard. And at the end of it. I didn't have any expectation of that. But I had heard it happen for other people. And they're like, Hey, Kim, do you want to? Do you want to work? You're doing some? Do you want to come on board as a team member? So I was like, Well, okay, that's that's it, that's really cool. I didn't pan out of the time, just because I was still at school. So that whatever that we're looking forward in, kind of match up for my hours of availability. But that was kind of set as an expectation. So I think that when you work hard, you are open to learning, you learn new ways you'd be like, malleable, regardless of kind of how old you are. And you do really want to show and prove yourself. They're all key, I would say criteria and aspects that I look for in anyone, regardless of type of role that coming on for so plus the benefit that I get to see their work without having to pay for it as well as another plus. So I think it does work quite well.
Charley: It's pretty much exactly what you're looking for from your potential hires anyway.
Kim: Yeah, exactly exactly what you want and as I can, and they have to prove themselves. And if they don't know, it's like, cool, you've come and done some work. I sign off that you've done a great internship. Well done. Thank you. And it's all positive from that.
Charley: That's pretty much how I got my first job, by the way it was working experience. Yeah. killed it. Because I was like, I want this job. And now Right, yeah, come work with us.
Kim: Yeah, that's why I think it's like it's a it's a great opportunity to see what people are made of.
Charley: Yeah, definitely.
Kim: So what we use and use it use a slightly different to mine. What, what were the key ones for yourself?
Charley: So definitely slightly different. My number one, right. He's actually been from courses, right. So and it sounds really funny. But it's like, where I found my best agency staff was that I would say I bought, I'll even tell you the specific ones. Like I bought a course from a guy called Mike Rhodes on Google AdWords. He had a fantastic course that's something I wanted to learn more about at a time. And then he had a community with these course. Everyone's like, that's pretty common these days, like every course you buy has a Facebook group. Absolutely. And that's where I got my great heights. Now the reason I looked there is because I knew there was people in this group that were already skilled in the thing that I was trying to do, done the same training. So I had some of my best eyes or one of my best hires in that example is I found a great AdWords guy, who was technically skilled, but wasn't doing so well. And he's own gig. So he was like, sweet, I'm happy to come and work for you. And then he was already trained, like, and I could see he was the type of person that invested in his own education. So like, that was another little green light. That kind of works amazing. I love when I see people that are invested in training in their own development. So that that was my hot tip number one, I've had numerous technical, especially for like, technically skilled people. That has been my best Avenue by mile.
Kim: Yeah, it may make sense. Like if they're going through vegetate, they're investing in themselves. They want to learn a like, for all intensive purposes, obviously, not necessarily. There's everyone, but they should have the technical ability after going through something like that to do it. So yeah, that's a great one.
Charley: So whenever your agencies doing, like, just go buy some courses, and getting those communities and like use them as recruitment poles.
Kim: Yeah, that's 100% great.
Charley: And then the second one, funnily enough is very similar to yours is network. So this is, I suppose, later on in my journey, but it's like at outsourcing age, we've really started hiring C level people. So this is that you know, big jumping management, where it's like, okay, now we've got a COO, and we've got a marketing manager and a sales manager and things like that. All of that best highs in Outsourcing Angel have been through network and referral,
Kim: I think is what when you when you start to look for some of those more senior one did, it does help be when you can find people that you do know, already have that level of experience and other people can vouch for them. It does make a big difference, I think, especially at the higher levels of hiring.
Charley: Oh, totally. And if it feels more like an unhealthy this is gonna sound weird. But it feels more like hunting than farming. Right? So it's like, I feel like let's say I wanted to hire a new VA. That's farming I'll put some something out there. And some people will apply for the job and we filter you know, a planted the seed people come we found it. In this game is like I want my slide looking for the person I want. Who has the experience or has done the thing that my company is trying to achieve big hint right there. So much easier when you hire people that have already done the thing you were trying to achieve And then I just like, attack! You go for that person.
Kim: There's a reason it's called headhunting, right. That's why I
Kim: Love it. I love it.
Charley: It's funny, though. It's like, Oh, you know how you got that job? It's, it's pretty much a game of like, I don't know, that sounds terrible once again. But it's like a job of making them realize how shit day job is and how much greener the grass is?
Kim: Exactly. dangling the carrot of the fence.
Charley: Absolutely. And, again, it's like one of those things where we kind of recognize much like you is that, you know, in my opinion, like great talent, and A players probably already have a job. It's very rare to find great people just sitting around doing nothing unless they've had a sabbatical or time off for something like that. So I've kind of found that we've acknowledged that if we can find people that have done the thing we're trying to do, then just head hunting for that. Is this going to be like petrol on the fire, it's going to be an accelerant? And it's proven to be that really ends?
Kim: Yeah, so true. I love that one.
Charley: Alright, so next, next round of questions. So finding people I thought was really interesting. I kind of want to almost shift this one, because I got I thought about this a lot. Where that keeping a place of you put much or keeping a great people if you had any challenges with good people leaving? Or have you had any challenges with you've hired someone that's good, and then they've actually declined in performance over time.
Kim: I would say no. And the reason being is that I think that I have probably worked in enough places that I didn't want to stay in, that I knew what I kind of had to do to keep people around, if that makes sense. So obviously, like the big thing that makes the biggest difference there is like its culture. If you look at you know, the, you know, the hierarchy of needs, and the seven human needs and all that sort of stuff. And if you can kind of, you know, you can help look at their fulfillment contribution level, these different things are the different areas, I think that you can very easily keep people as long as your if your business is doing good, and you have clients that are doing good at you know, dealing with people who are... not bad, but it's like just like, not fun to work with are not engaged like people that like I don't want to talk to this person. Like there'll be the worst experience ever had a job like that. So being the fact that I have worked probably different to some other people's like, I've worked in companies where there was like 25 people working conference with 10 people were there was three people. And each of them along the way, I could tell you exactly the reasons why I would not want to say or why I would want to stay. Most though I had not wanted to stay only one reason that one place that I wanted to stay that I didn't was because the boss made me not want to stay. But everything else within the company maybe want to stay.
Kim: So I've been I've done my best to take from those experiences for myself, which is building a good team building a fun environment. Building environment that has like we are casual but not slack where we are fun, but we don't like a mess like we don't we're not here like one of the sayings that we have, which was from both of us have heard before plenty I'll give you the the G rated version, which is we're not here to fornicate with arachnids, right? Like, we're not here to muck around. So who we want to get stuff done. But we also want to have fun along the way. We want to like celebrate and reward together. We don't you know, like we have Christmas trip, we do all this sort of stuff that all that our team is a part of. And that's really something that's important to us. And to me and going well. Yeah, like they're all the different things that I sometimes either lacked or missed out on in other roles that I had, that I wanted to make sure that if I was ever, which I am now obviously leading a team that they would be able to get the benefit from.
Charley: That's huge. Honestly, that is so huge. And I just want to say well done on spotting those things from your previous experiences. I think that is massive
Kim: evident for me. A lot of them. Yeah, that will be painful.
Charley: I feel like for me personally, like I'm actually a bit of an introvert, I'm one of those people that would you I suppose you would say is more IQ and low EQ, like EQ is an area of really had to work. And it's quite fascinating that, you know, when I look back on my first agency, and I look at how I was treating people, I just didn't realize I was an asshole, I'll be real, like, I didn't realize that I was abrupt or could be rude or anything like that, or was that I could put pressure on people. And I think that certainly at times played a role in not developing staff well, and it was only later on that Linh, funnily enough, my co founder at outsourcing angel made me aware of it, I was like, Wow, I've got to work on this, I've really, really go to work on these. And, you know, to look at it as like, I suppose I was a bit of a hurricane manager, or was this like coming in and making a mess and like the team didn't feel very valued and have gone, the culture wasn't very good. I had to go through that experience to kind of, I suppose improve things and learn from that. But the other thing I really kind of, I suppose learned from that experience, when I want you to imagine right there like A players like clean water. And like B players or C players like poison, right. Now, this works in both ways. If you have this nice clean pool of A players and you drop some poison in there, you will poison the whole pot. And on vice versa, if you've got a team of B players that are all poison, and you put some clean water in there, you'll actually just poison the new A player and turn it will B player. Like something I found overwhelmingly, in recent times is just like how important that is to the success of the team. I really feel like you've got to be very, very protective of you good people, and making sure that you're not introducing subpar people into your team. Otherwise you have a huge potential just like bring down the overall quality of the squad.
Kim: Yeah, so true. And then obviously, yeah, if that does happen, if you have a pool of either B players are you bringing them in, hopefully, fingers crossed, based on listening to this podcast, people be able to start to identify some of these things and spot them and going well, okay. And if you have one A player going into a pool or B players, obviously I feel sorry for you, hopefully you can find. Find some to mix that up. But obviously the bringing those people and I think sometimes so if you do have, I think generally you will find and this most recent if you have a pretty good cohesive team say they're all a clean water A player's happening. If somebody comes into it, generally speaking, they are from from people who are normally like a for like a bit little bit. They're not they're not big, they don't really complain that much they get stuff done. When somebody comes in, and that affects that generally, they're the first to speak up. And I think it's being able to identify that. So the biggest thing I always is that if you have a good cohesive team and somebody comes up and rocks though, rocks the whole boat, generally people that are not normally commenting on certain things will start to make comments, they'll start to like point things out that and you've just got to be willing to be able to say that. And there's something that's already in many, like one of the companies that I've worked in was 98% female, I was male and the boss was male. So be very interesting when a new girl would come in, right? Obviously, it's very different, obviously, sometimes how how guys and girls react in certain situations. But if they didn't get along with, like, a couple of the ladies, generally, they wouldn't get along with the rest of them was rest of what everyone was all on the same page. So as soon as that would happen, the girls would like some of their personality, what kind of flip and I'm back, why you guys actually like this? And then I'd be like, Well, obviously, the new girl is not getting along well with everyone for whatever reason, they might most the time if somebody is generally work related, not normally anything outside of that. And then that would have to be okay, cool. You know, I was like, all right, they're not going to be, I could just tell us that they're not going to be here for very long. And yet not been, you know, not nothing to say their personality, anything was bad. But if they didn't have that same sort of work ethic, delivery and, and culture fit that it was it was very quick that I saw that happening.
Charley: Interesting. That is so interesting. And I'll explain again, why that is interesting. I obviously outsource again to is a company that is like 95 97% females, and very similar things I have seen down. Now I'm not saying this is a female thing. I'm not saying this is a male thing. But there's certainly a connection to the idea that if certain people don't get along with certain people on the team, they probably won't last.
Kim: Yeah, happens very quickly.
Charley: So what's your number one tip for keeping good people then?
Kim: Well, number one probably something that we haven't touched on is that if they good and they joined the team, and obviously they're a culture fit, I think you really have to understand on this side, like one thing that might sound a bit weird people but figure out what their what their love languages, right, because a lot of people don't have a connection with people. And you know, it's like they the way that they reward by the financial we might be might be with gifts in might be with words of praise, whatever it might be. But if that's not what they want, it doesn't really matter. Because you can have a load of the other boxes being ticked. But if it doesn't, if that key area that they're looking for isn't ticked, then they won't get it. Like I know in some of the companies I worked with, like people just wanted to spend time with the boss because the boss is like a technical brilliant person. Like, was like super creative. But he never made time is that cool? Like you want to raise it give me a raise, or you want like this, you want a new like it? Was it company? Well, this will give you this. But they a lot of them I could say is like well, they want to connect with a person that they aspire to be like in similar but if you do make the time for them, very easy to the good people, but Okay, well, I'm going to bail to somewhere else where I can get that met, even if they don't know how to articulate that.
Charley: That is the best answer. I can't even match that. Like that is I just think that is so spot on. I had another framing for that. But it's so interesting. I've seen similar things like if they want his time, he's literally throwing money at them.
Kim: Yeah. And it doesn't it doesn't matter. I guess like, it's impossible. And I know because I people I've had many people come there done work for me before they're taking a pay cut to come in and do it. And it's like, cool. Well, obviously money is like I think in one of my friends, Julian runs a company happiness coincide in happiness. in the workplace. Money is like the fifth determining factor. And generally happiness is what also correlates to retention as well. And if you What do you think I think about like that it's like are like a lot of the time, but we may not pay the like the highest have the highest rates in the agency industry. But it's like everything else, I think that we do, correlates to them being being happier and having a better work environment. And I always do my best to try and figure out what it is that people respond the best to, I've only ever had one time where I couldn't figure it out and that person didn't stay. But then that was a different type of a whole different situation with that one. But everyone else where have been able to somewhat figure that out. It's like it's made sense in this build, and for stronger and stronger relationships over time.
Charley: And it's such a good answer, Kim, that is such a good answer. And I tend to agree, it's like I had this overwhelming belief is that if I can find out what's important to my staff and what their goals are. And I can align that with what they're doing at the company. So they can see that, you know, their work here contributes to them getting what they want. They tend to stick around. It's only when that becomes a conflict. Do you really see people leave.
Kim: The same as we said before about the human nature just like them needs met. There's like nothing is really going to like nothing, nothing's going to change it. But it's like there's no reason to look elsewhere.
Charley: Definitely, some head hunting for them.
Kim: Then yes, exactly. And this Charley comes in and
Charley: Oh well, Kim, a lot of value shared on this podcast on people. And I think I feel like we've covered a lot of ground that people don't really talk about, like I've been I've listened to a lot of podcasts and read a lot of books on team and a lot of it is focused on like, you know, A players is more than A player looks like but I think what's happened in this conversation is we've covered a lot of things people may not be looking at.
Kim: Well, I hope so because I think it's like obviously all those things that you know, any other resources give you in terms of finding A players is important, but I think when you bring it all together, it's like you've got like an irresistible formula.
Charley: Yeah, I agree. And on that note, we're going to wrap up this episode of the podcast. Now guys, thank you so much for tuning in if you have liked sorry if you have enjoyed this episode, please make sure to like and subscribe. Thank you to my co host Kim Barrett, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Kim: Thanks for having me again, sir. Charley: Alright, guys, that's it for this episode.
Kim is the Founder and CEO of Your Social Voice (YSV), an Australian based Digital Marketing Agency established in 2015. YSV helps businesses get heard on Social Media, and most importantly build engagement, generate more leads and more sales.